Episode 13: "Stop coaching me right now!" a conversation with Terry Barkman

In this episode of Coaching Confidential we begin a series of conversations with professional coaches on the topic of what is different in their life since they've chosen coaching as a profession.

Our first conversation is with Terry Barkman of Sailboat Coaching International. Terry and Lisa chat about one aspect of how personal relationships are impacted by coach-like behaviors. Terry will tell us about one relationship that faced a dead end and how he thinks about the idea that "the conversation between two people IS actually the relationship between two people." Finally, we explore how some skills learned in coaching school are actually valuable relationship resources in human relationship. And how these are sometimes confused for coaching. A topic we'll dive into more deeply in future episodes.

Also, check out Terry on Tedx. His recent talk is  here.

Editors note: The statement: "The conversation IS the relationship" was so powerful for me (Lisa) that I wrote this piece about it. A great coaching indoor utilizing #perspective and #curiosity to get #clarity on some of your relationship #values.

#coaching #relationships #confusion #clarity #conversation #coachlike #values #resources #superpower #intimacy #alliance #sailboat #depth #friends #curiosity #career #fun #wonder #ask 

If you would like to sample coaching for yourSelf, CONTACT US.

If you'd like to share what listening was like for you, DROP A LINE. We'd love to hear you!

Follow us on Instagram.

Follow us on Facebook.

Follow us on LinkedIn.

#thecoachingconfidentialpodcast #coaching #podcast

Transcript

Vimla   00:07

Hello, and welcome to coaching confidential, a podcast hosted by ICF certified professional coaches, Lisa DiMatteo and myself, Vimla Gulabani in this podcast, we bring you inside a real live unscripted coaching session. And at the end of the coaching session, you hear from the client about the impact of the coaching. And you hear about the skills that the coach used today. We are doing something slightly different and Lisa will tell us what that is.

Lisa   00:36

Yeah. So this podcast is for coaches, for folks who are curious about being coached, or for those who are maybe interested in becoming a coach. And this particular episode is still for all these people for all of you. And those who are interested in becoming a coach might find this episode particularly interesting or enlightening. So today we are going to be talking with a fellow coach of ours, and we'll introduce him in, in a moment. Basically what we're doing is looking at a couple of different angles on what it's like to be a coach, what it's like in our personal relationships, what it's like when people who aren't familiar with coaching might think that are regular conversations with them actually are coaching.

Vimla   01:30

Awesome. Let's go ahead and introduce Terry.

Lisa   01:33

Yeah. So we are having a conversation upcoming with Terry Barkman. Terry is part of an organization called sailboat coaching international, and he actually coaches executives via the activity of sailing.

Vimla   01:50

How cool is that?

Lisa   01:51

Yes.

Vimla   01:53

And, uh, you'll get to know more about Terry in the conversation and there will be links to his website, his social media handles, and so on in the show notes as well. A note for the audience today's episode begins with, uh, Lisa introducing this topic and then Terry and Lisa really go deep very quickly. So enjoy

Lisa   02:17

A lot of us as coaches, exhibit coach-like behavior when we're not even coaching. So like that might look like we're extremely curious, that might look like we acknowledge people. We might use coaching language. And so for those reasons, or for any others that might come up in our conversation, people in our lives might be like thinking we're coaching them when we're not mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that can be a really weird thing to navigate in relationships. There are also things that happen that aren't, that, that come up because you're a coach and you're in relationship with others. And I was looking to hear from coaches about what their experiences are, what that specific thing or something else like that,

Terry   03:02

Uh, we're talking about being a coach outside of coaching.

Lisa   03:05

Well, we're talking about, yeah. Being a human who happens to be a coach outside of coaching. And so like, there's this difference, right? Between being in a coaching session, that includes things like a designed Alliance and permission from the other to be coached and all of that and having a coach-like conversation and even more just being a human who is a coach who I guess I would fall under coach-like conversation because if you're a coach, sometimes you behave coach-, it's not necessarily a coach like conversation, but you behave like a coach. Mm-hmm <affirmative> even though you're not actually coaching, cause you can't coach somebody without their permission.

Terry   03:45

Right. Right. Well, and I have had someone say to me, stop coaching me right now, uh, to which I responded, what am I doing that feels like coaching to you? And they go back that, that question is a coaching question. <laugh>

Lisa   04:02

So asking a question is, is like,

Terry   04:05

Oh yes. Yeah. I, it's hard for you to know exactly what another person is experiencing in a moment. Uh, especially if they won't tell you, but, uh, yes.

Lisa   04:15

Okay. I've certainly been in that position and I've reacted or responded in a variety of ways, oftentimes with curiosity, which kind of what you did. Like <laugh>, it, it sort of like cements the, the, the deal. So, um, so how did that go? Like how did, how did you resolve that situation

Terry   04:40

In that particular situation? I just backed off. I said, okay. I mean, this is, this is what you're asking me for and I don't understand it. Uh, and I'm gonna let you have it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Lisa   04:53

So in that situation, you backed off. What was the cost? Was there any,

Terry   04:58

Uh, uh, yeah, I mean, I feel like there was a cost to the relationship. Um, there, there are lots of kinds of barriers to intimacy, whether it's a fear or, uh, some thing with trauma. The odd thing about a barrier to intimacy is that we may not know what it is, right. Knowing what it is in it in itself is a form of intimacy. It's a form of knowing. And of course, part of what makes me a good coach, I hope is that I'm curious. And so I'm just desperately curious to know what the thing is that I'm not allowed to know, uh, and, and asking is not, uh, welcome. And so I'm continuing to not ask.

Lisa   05:43

Yeah. Yeah. So are you saying that the cost and that particular moment was, um, the possibility of intimacy in that particular relationship or an intimate moment anyways?

Terry   06:01

Yeah. I mean, um, I guess the way I think of it is that we've lost two levels of relationship

Lisa   06:08

Say more,

Terry   06:09

Two levels of relationship depth.

Lisa   06:11

Mm okay. Yeah, yeah. If

Terry   06:16

It was only one moment, uh, then that would be just a blip, but it was a defining moment. It was a moment and they're going to be more like these.

Lisa   06:26

Yeah.

Terry   06:27

Um, so there really is a true barrier to, uh, getting to know someone if questions are kind of off the table.

Lisa   06:35

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't actually think we were gonna go in this direction, but I actually <laugh>. I think that it's really interesting because, um, and, and I let's pull the word intimacy out cause I think that can be polarizing for people in terms of how yeah. How they define it. But when you said the word depth yes. That really felt like, yeah, like, you know, you have friends that you get together with and you talk about the weather and that's all you do. Um, and then you have friends that, you know, there's certain layers of kind of revelation you can go to in, in these relationships. And it sounds like in this particular situation, the person opposite, you put up a boundary

Terry   07:18

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Lisa   07:19

Um, because they perceived your curiosity as a human in that relationship. Mm-hmm <affirmative> a particular way. And it was like, no, this is where. And so, so what was lost was the ability to have some depth, either in that conversation or in your case, you're saying it's repetitive. So in the relationship,

Terry   07:42

Right. Yeah. And one thing maybe I would add to that is that, uh, for me, at least the conversation is the relationship. There's the conversation, small, the micro conversation that we are having today, but then there's the overarching conversation that spans decades.

Lisa   07:59

Yeah.

Terry   08:00

Uh, and if that conversation is, uh, sort of restricted by external limiters, uh, I, or I guess internal to one of the people in the relationship external to me, then that's, as far as the relationship can go, that's the boundary.

Lisa   08:17

Yeah. You know, I'm thinking about, it feels like there might have been an assumption. Oh, it feels really bold for me to be translating this, but like, okay. I wonder, I wonder. Yes. If there was an assumption that there's two of you in relationship with this person, like, you know, like what if we just went around with badges that said like coach, friend mm-hmm <affirmative> partner, like, and I'm here as friends today. Like there's no coaching, I don't do coaching on anybody. And, and like, I mean, I, I suppose this happens in any profession right. Where somebody does something like a doctor, like don't treat me well, okay. I'm not on the table. Like, I'm not gonna treat you, but like how, how do, how do you handle this? I'm holding this thing of, like, there's an assumption that when I'm in relationship with you as a friend, I'm also showing up as a coach, but we don't generally okay. And welled relationships, we don't generally do that.

Terry   09:34

Right. Yeah. And maybe badges would be helpful, um, for me. And it'll be interesting to see what other people say for me being a coach is so much a part of who I am. It would be hard to separate. Uh, and that was not the same for me when I was an electrician.

Lisa   09:52

Oh.

Terry   09:53

I knew if I was wiring your house or not.

Lisa   09:55

Yeah.

Terry   09:56

There was zero ambiguity.

Lisa   09:58

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Terry   10:00

Uh, and if somebody said to me, Hey, stop wiring my house. I could clearly show how I wasn't doing that.

Lisa   10:05

Yeah.

Terry   10:07

Uh, but it's a different thing when they say, well, I, I feel like you are.

Lisa   10:11

Yeah, yeah. That feel is a, is an interesting one because we can't argue with somebody's perception. Um, but I'm wondering in the, in the electrical career moment, if there was a more subtle, uh, experience of that, say like, obviously if you have your tool belt on and you're, you know, holding somebody's wires, <laugh>, um, you know, you're doing the electrical thing. What about something like where they're asking you about something, you know, peop craftsmen or tradesmen, um, people trades, people will often say like, people are always asking me about what I do, like, or like how to fix something. Right. Was it more subtle in those moments?

Terry   11:07

Um, yeah. I mean, I guess a little bit, uh, I was pretty clear on what my boundaries were. Um, and my, my love for coaching is so much bigger than my love for being an electrician ever was. Uh, and so I would very quickly come to a place where like, I'm not having fun anymore. Uh, and if I'm not having fun, then you should be paying me. Hmm. Um, and in fact, I had a conversation about these sorts of boundaries with my cousin. Who's a doctor and people, uh, apparently all the time ask him, Hey, what about this thing that I'm experiencing? And he unequivocally says, well, you should go see a doctor. Yeah. Well, you're a doctor. All right. Well, do you wanna take off your pants right now? Because <laugh> because you have to be clear on what kind of relationship this is. And I have my friend badge on right now, if you wanna see me with my doctor's badge on come to the office, make an appointment, sit in the waiting room, and then we can do doctory stuff. Yeah.

Lisa   12:21

Yeah. So that's a really clear example of a person who does a thing for a career who is setting clear boundaries. So it, if we come back to the example with your friends and I wanna be super clear, Terry, that I'm not trying to coach you

Terry   12:35

Now. Thank you.

Lisa   12:36

<laugh> although I swear it may, it may sound like it. How, how, or it is that kind of thing helpful in that situation, or are you actually wanting to be able to be really coach like in personal relationships?

Terry   12:58

Uh, let me answer that question this way. I would say that the experience I just told you about is an outlier, um, where I lost depth with somebody because of perceived ness in all of the important and especially new relationship in my life showing up, uh, not necessarily as a coach, but as somebody who is a coach, as a human, who also thinks about things and does emotional work and has intuition, uh, in all the other relationships with my life, this has been, uh, superpower.

Lisa   13:37

Mm. Say more about that last piece.

Terry   13:41

Well, I wanna have friends who are coaches, uh, and I think people wanna have friends who are coaches. Oh, which was the last piece.

Lisa   13:51

Oh, the superpower piece.

Terry   13:54

Oh yeah. I mean, I feel like being a coach showing up as a human who also coaches, um, allows you to tap into all sorts of valuable relationship resources, like having an intuition for somebody like being able to show up powerfully in empathy. Like being able to ask the question, well, Hey, I know you're talking right now, but are you wanting to vent? Are you looking for advice? Let's clarify. Even if we don't have a quote unquote uh, designed Alliance, what are we agreeing that this conversation is?

Lisa   14:28

Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. That place right there that you just named, like how to be in a regular relationship in this way, that isn't an everyday way of being in relationship. Somebody who isn't familiar with that might automatically think that that's coaching when a coach is just thinking, well, I'm actually just trying to be an intentional

Terry   14:59

Right.

Lisa   14:59

Mindful relationship. This is my way actually, of being a good friend. And yeah, I have these skills. Maybe I got them in my own journey of personal development. Maybe they were something that I acquired through my coach training, but they're actually my personal skills that I'm, I'm sharing here. That place is really fascinating. I wish we had more time to talk about that. Um, maybe we actually come back to that as a, as its own episode. At some point I would love that. Is there anything that you would like folks listening to know about you or what you do, Terry?

Terry   15:35

Uh, yeah. I coach executives. Uh, I do team building and my favorite way to do team building is on a sailboat.

Lisa   15:42

That's so, so unique. I've been in this world for about 15 years now. And you are the first sailboat coach I've ever met in 15 years of coaching. How can people get in touch with you?

Terry   15:54

Uh, the best way is my website, sailboat coaching, international.com,

Lisa   16:00

Sailboat coaching, international

Terry   16:03

Sailboat, coaching, international.com or Google Terry, the sailable coach, and all my stuff will come up. YouTube, Instagram, all

Lisa   16:10

Of it. Awesome. And that's Terry T E R R Y.

Terry   16:14

Exactly.

Lisa   16:15

Okay, awesome. Thank you, Terry.

Terry   16:19

Well, it has been a lot of fun and, uh, let's do it again, sir.

Lisa   16:24

All right. Great, Terry, thanks

Vimla   16:32

Lisa. That was a powerful conversation. So what's standing out to you.

Lisa   16:38

Well, uh, first I just loved the banter with Terry <laugh>. It was really fun to, um, have a conversation about something that we both related to, uh, in different ways, but for sure, uh, when Terry talks about how the conversation is the relationship for him, that was sort of like a bam to me. And I'll admit when he very first said it, it didn't hit me quite that way. It was only in our editing process that I really, um, I felt like that conversation came to me on a silver platter. Like this is a, this is really important, this, this con this idea, this concept. And so for me, this idea that in any relationship we're having, uh, romantic partnership, a friendship, a work relationship, anything that we're having, all these little conversations. So all these small moments in across the relationship, but that there's this bigger conversation happening that spans the entire relationship is just fascinating to me. It's sort of like, what is this relationship about? What is the purpose of it? What is happening across the entire arc of the relationship? It's almost poetic the idea of this for me. And, um, I've been exploring this concept deeply ever since Terry ever since it hit me. And there's certainly probably more to come on this, uh, for me, but that's me. What, uh, what popped out for you, Emma?

Vimla   18:20

Uh, the conversation is the relationship that did jump out to me as well. Uh, but, um, there was something else that was also very powerful and that, you know, at one point, uh, Terry said that, um, uh, most people weren't want to have friends who are coaches and I, I completely completely agree with that. I think, uh, I have believed that since I became a coach, but I did not find the words to put it like that, that most people want to have friends who are coaches and as friends. Uh, we bring a lot of curiosity, a lot of, um, sort of, you know, boundary setting in our relationships. At least that's true for me. I bring a lot of curiosity, a lot of boundary setting, meaning I don't step into the space of, uh, offering advice to my friends without first asking them <laugh> would they like advice or not? So that's a boundary practice. And, um, I think, uh, it has deepened my friendships, so I totally resonate with that.

Lisa   19:33

Yeah. Yeah. Well also being in friendship with evenly, I can say that this is true and I really appreciate being on the other end of those qualities. I, I love hearing that that's a piece that, that stood out for you. Um, I think Terry called it valuable relationship resources.

Vimla   19:52

Yes.

Lisa   19:53

Right. Yeah. And, and, and it brings up like a really, um, kind of that topic again, of like sometimes those relationship resources can be confused for coaching.

Vimla   20:12

Yes.

Lisa   20:13

Right. Because they're not standard in all relationships and maybe they're new in a long arced relationship. And so the other person on the other side is kind of confused because those resources weren't always there. And so it's sort of like, wait, what's different here. Is this actually coaching? Or did this person just change who they are or change how they be in relationships?

Vimla   20:49

Yes. Yes. That is so, so, so very true. Especially in the long act relationships, Lisa, you bring up a great point and the long act relationships sometimes get very confused when we become a coach, uh, when one person becomes a coach in that relationship. Yeah. So that's something maybe we have to explore more in a future episode

Lisa   21:13

For sure. For sure. And I'm thinking too, like this happens in all kinds of relationships with all kinds of people who do all kinds of different things, right. We're just shining the light on coaching. And I'm just thinking like, you know, this, this idea of using the relationship resource of clarity and kind of speaking about how the relationship changes when the people in it actually change how they be is a really awesome skill. Whether you're a coach, a teacher, a software engineer <laugh> or, uh, you know, unemployed doesn't matter, right. Like this can happen anywhere at any time with any people.

Vimla   21:56

Yes. Um, alright. So what are we doing next time?

Lisa   22:01

So we're or queuing up episode 14. And in that episode, we continue talking to our peer coaches. We're gonna be talking with a different coach about some of that confusion,

Vimla   22:15

Exciting. And as usual, if folks want to reach us, they can look at the show notes, visit the website. We would love to hear from you. Uh, we'd love to hear your opinions, the impact this podcast is having on you. If it's having an impact on you or anything else that you might want to share with us, uh, there will be links in the show notes on how you can reach out to us.

Lisa   22:41

All right. And so we'll see, in episode 14,